Author Topic: Bernie Wallet POS Confusion  (Read 1062 times)

Offline Kobra Kommander

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Bernie Wallet POS Confusion
« on: April 21, 2016, 01:19:24 AM »
I was making POS payments earlier this week, now it says next payment is in 8300 days lol



Offline StevenSaxtonBERNdev

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Re: Bernie Wallet POS Confusion
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2016, 01:57:11 AM »
I was making POS payments earlier this week, now it says next payment is in 8300 days lol

Hi Kobra Kommander,

What you are looking at is information run through a very complex process that produces an estimation based on a snapshot of time. This complex and not accurate estimation has many, many unpredictable variables. Calling it an 'estimation' in reality might even be an over exaggeration. Let me explain why.

This is the "simple" part, if there is one. BERN mined blocks mature in ~30 minutes. BERN transactions confirm in ~4 minutes. Actually this is done with the number of blocks passed and not the number of minutes passed, but fortunately BERN has a target block timing of 1 minute so the conversion is straight forward. After either applicable time passes, they begin gaining what is called coin age. Coin age is calculated in days. It takes 24 hours after maturity or full confirmation for staking to start on the individual, fractions of, or grouped BERN effected (1, .001, or 100. i.e. transaction block). This is the minimum coin age for staking of BERN, 24 hours. The maximum coin age for staking is 4 years and at that point BERN residing in the same address will no longer collect PoS rewards. Coin age is reset anytime any amount of BERN moves for the specific BERN that have moved. Staking will not happen in a wallet that is encrypted and is still locked but the BERN will continue to gain coin age and therefor have more weight when staking is started. Weight is calculated by a function that contains the variables of coin age and the size of the transaction block (not to be confused with a block on the blockchian). When you think about a wallet that is even mildly used throughout a day, imagine all the "timers" of coin age that are present because every transaction has a timer attached to the all BERN within that transaction. Every faucet payment, every airdrop, every move to or from an exchange, and even every move of BERN to a different address within the same wallet. Extrapolate that out among all the wallets and all their transactions. If that sounds like a lot of time calculations, it's because it is. Please also note, weight only determines the frequency of installments towards the 10%. Again, this was the not-so-complex part.

Please for a moment think about all the ever changing external factors outside of your wallet for which you nor your wallet have control over: How many BERN wallets are online and staking. How many are not online and therefor not staking. How many BERN are they presently staking. How many BERN are they not staking (but these are still gaining coin age and subsequently will have more weight when they are staked). What is the coin age and weight of the BERN they are holding. What are the sizes of all their different transactions blocks. Also somewhere on the network, 250 BERN reach staking age every minute, unless they were moved prior to reaching minimum staking age 24 hours or sooner which resets those coin's age. Now think of the changes of all them just mentioned variables when people are sending and receiving constantly. Coin age is getting reset on some amount of BERN with every send and receive and subsequently network weight lowers. But at that same or very near time other coins on the other side of the network reach minimum staking age and push network weight upward by some amount based on the size of its transaction block. The matrix of constantly changing variables is really mind boggling even to think of all this happening on only with a few wallets and transactions. Let alone hundreds or thousands.

All of this could not be reported in anything remotely close to real time by any single computer even if it could gather all the information fast enough from all the nodes. Until crypto, computational power, and the entire supporting Internet, all do some major evolving these gross estimations must suffice. Perhaps before the 2020 election when we get ready to vote Bernie in for his second term technology will exists to do this with a greater degree of accuracy.

Rest assured Kobra Kommander, you will receive your 10% annual. BERN is built upon time-tested and time-proven PoS code by the pioneers of PoS. I took much effort, did much research, and did implement all code improvements that have evolved in PoS to ensure an accurate 10% annual return on all BERN holdings.

Thank you for raising this question Kobra Kommander as I am sure other BERN community members have wondered the same. If any further elaboration is needed by yourself or any other reader of this post, please be specific as possible when asking.

(a lot of this post comes from questions asked in the BERN announcement thread on Bitcoin Talk in this post. Yes I am the BernieCoin user on Bitcoin Talk.)
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 10:01:29 PM by StevenSaxtonBERNdev »
Steven Saxton - BERN Lead Developer - #JillTheBERN #MineTheBERN

Offline ^eSe^ DonMarco

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Re: Bernie Wallet POS Confusion
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2016, 01:58:28 PM »
I was making POS payments earlier this week, now it says next payment is in 8300 days lol

Hi Kobra Kommander,

What you are looking at is information run throw a very complex process that produces an estimation based on a snapshot of time. This complex and not accurate estimation has many, many unpredictable variables. Calling it an 'estimation' in reality might even be an over exaggeration. Let me explain why.

This is the "simple" part, if there is one. BERN mined blocks mature in ~30 minutes. BERN transactions confirm in ~4 minutes. Actually this is done with the number of blocks passed and not the number of minutes passed, but fortunately BERN has a target block timing of 1 minute so the conversion is straight forward. After either applicable time passes, they begin gaining what is called coin age. Coin age is calculated in days. It takes 24 hours after maturity or full confirmation for staking to start on the individual, fractions of, or grouped BERN effected (1, .001, or 100. i.e. transaction block). This is the minimum coin age for staking of BERN, 24 hours. The maximum coin age for staking is 4 years and at that point BERN residing in the same address will no longer collect PoS rewards. Coin age is reset anytime any amount of BERN moves for the specific BERN that have moved. Staking will not happen in a wallet that is encrypted and is still locked but the BERN will continue to gain coin age and therefor have more weight when staking is started. Weight is calculated by a function that contains the variables of coin age and the size of the transaction block (not to be confused with a block on the blockchian). When you think about a wallet that is even mildly used throughout a day, imagine all the "timers" of coin age that are present because every transaction has a timer attached to the all BERN within that transaction. Every faucet payment, every airdrop, every move to or from an exchange, and even every move of BERN to a different address within the same wallet. Extrapolate that out among all the wallets and all their transactions. If that sounds like a lot of time calculations, it's because it is. Please also note, weight only determines the frequency of installments towards the 10%. Again, this was the not-so-complex part.

Please for a moment think about all the ever changing external factors outside of your wallet for which you nor your wallet have control over: How many BERN wallets are online and staking. How many are not online and therefor not staking. How many BERN are they presently staking. How many BERN are they not staking (but these are still gaining coin age and subsequently will have more weight when they are staked). What is the coin age and weight of the BERN they are holding. What are the sizes of all their different transactions blocks. Also somewhere on the network, 250 BERN reach staking age every minute, unless they were moved prior to reaching minimum staking age 24 hours or sooner which resets those coin's age. Now think of the changes of all them just mentioned variables when people are sending and receiving constantly. Coin age is getting reset on some amount of BERN with every send and receive and subsequently network weight lowers. But at that same or very near time other coins on the other side of the network reach minimum staking age and push network weight upward by some amount based on the size of its transaction block. The matrix of constantly changing variables is really mind boggling even to think of all this happening on only with a few wallets and transactions. Let alone hundreds or thousands.

All of this could not be reported in anything remotely close to real time by any single computer even if it could gather all the information fast enough from all the nodes. Until crypto, computational power, and the entire supporting Internet, all do some major evolving these gross estimations must suffice. Perhaps before the 2020 election when we get ready to vote Bernie in for his second term technology will exists to do this with a greater degree of accuracy.

Rest assured Kobra Kommander, you will receive your 10% annual. BERN is built upon time-tested and time-proven PoS code by the pioneers of PoS. I took much effort, did much research, and did implement all code improvements that have evolved in PoS to ensure an accurate 10% annual return on all BERN holdings.

Thank you for raising this question Kobra Kommander as I am sure other BERN community members have wondered the same. If any further elaboration is needed by yourself or any other reader of this post, please be specific as possible when asking.

(a lot of this post comes from questions asked in the BERN announcement thread on Bitcoin Talk in this post. Yes I am the BernieCoin user on Bitcoin Talk.)

WoW. This is very good information. I was woundering as well that is POS ( I know it is like POW but different)

Than if I good understand it like this:

POW = More M/hash ( Power) more coins You get for mining
PoS = More coins You stake + time of opened not encrypted wallet = more coins You get for staking?
Wallets with more balance and 24/7 opened wallet have more chance to make more coins from POS?
max reward POS?

I got now like 0.01 - 0.1 Bern for staking sometimes 10x per day sometimes 2x per day, but now im selling all other coins and buying more and more bern to stake in my wallet. than if i have like 500,000,00 Bern in my wallet i will get more often and more coins from POS yes?
Feel free to ask me anything You want :)
#FeelTheBern

Offline StevenSaxtonBERNdev

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Re: Bernie Wallet POS Confusion
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2016, 04:05:50 PM »
I was making POS payments earlier this week, now it says next payment is in 8300 days lol

Hi Kobra Kommander,

What you are looking at is information run throw a very complex process that produces an estimation based on a snapshot of time. This complex and not accurate estimation has many, many unpredictable variables. Calling it an 'estimation' in reality might even be an over exaggeration. Let me explain why.

This is the "simple" part, if there is one. BERN mined blocks mature in ~30 minutes. BERN transactions confirm in ~4 minutes. Actually this is done with the number of blocks passed and not the number of minutes passed, but fortunately BERN has a target block timing of 1 minute so the conversion is straight forward. After either applicable time passes, they begin gaining what is called coin age. Coin age is calculated in days. It takes 24 hours after maturity or full confirmation for staking to start on the individual, fractions of, or grouped BERN effected (1, .001, or 100. i.e. transaction block). This is the minimum coin age for staking of BERN, 24 hours. The maximum coin age for staking is 4 years and at that point BERN residing in the same address will no longer collect PoS rewards. Coin age is reset anytime any amount of BERN moves for the specific BERN that have moved. Staking will not happen in a wallet that is encrypted and is still locked but the BERN will continue to gain coin age and therefor have more weight when staking is started. Weight is calculated by a function that contains the variables of coin age and the size of the transaction block (not to be confused with a block on the blockchian). When you think about a wallet that is even mildly used throughout a day, imagine all the "timers" of coin age that are present because every transaction has a timer attached to the all BERN within that transaction. Every faucet payment, every airdrop, every move to or from an exchange, and even every move of BERN to a different address within the same wallet. Extrapolate that out among all the wallets and all their transactions. If that sounds like a lot of time calculations, it's because it is. Please also note, weight only determines the frequency of installments towards the 10%. Again, this was the not-so-complex part.

Please for a moment think about all the ever changing external factors outside of your wallet for which you nor your wallet have control over: How many BERN wallets are online and staking. How many are not online and therefor not staking. How many BERN are they presently staking. How many BERN are they not staking (but these are still gaining coin age and subsequently will have more weight when they are staked). What is the coin age and weight of the BERN they are holding. What are the sizes of all their different transactions blocks. Also somewhere on the network, 250 BERN reach staking age every minute, unless they were moved prior to reaching minimum staking age 24 hours or sooner which resets those coin's age. Now think of the changes of all them just mentioned variables when people are sending and receiving constantly. Coin age is getting reset on some amount of BERN with every send and receive and subsequently network weight lowers. But at that same or very near time other coins on the other side of the network reach minimum staking age and push network weight upward by some amount based on the size of its transaction block. The matrix of constantly changing variables is really mind boggling even to think of all this happening on only with a few wallets and transactions. Let alone hundreds or thousands.

All of this could not be reported in anything remotely close to real time by any single computer even if it could gather all the information fast enough from all the nodes. Until crypto, computational power, and the entire supporting Internet, all do some major evolving these gross estimations must suffice. Perhaps before the 2020 election when we get ready to vote Bernie in for his second term technology will exists to do this with a greater degree of accuracy.

Rest assured Kobra Kommander, you will receive your 10% annual. BERN is built upon time-tested and time-proven PoS code by the pioneers of PoS. I took much effort, did much research, and did implement all code improvements that have evolved in PoS to ensure an accurate 10% annual return on all BERN holdings.

Thank you for raising this question Kobra Kommander as I am sure other BERN community members have wondered the same. If any further elaboration is needed by yourself or any other reader of this post, please be specific as possible when asking.

(a lot of this post comes from questions asked in the BERN announcement thread on Bitcoin Talk in this post. Yes I am the BernieCoin user on Bitcoin Talk.)

WoW. This is very good information. I was woundering as well that is POS ( I know it is like POW but different)

Than if I good understand it like this:

POW = More M/hash ( Power) more coins You get for mining
PoS = More coins You stake + time of opened not encrypted wallet = more coins You get for staking?
Wallets with more balance and 24/7 opened wallet have more chance to make more coins from POS?
max reward POS?

I got now like 0.01 - 0.1 Bern for staking sometimes 10x per day sometimes 2x per day, but now im selling all other coins and buying more and more bern to stake in my wallet. than if i have like 500,000,00 Bern in my wallet i will get more often and more coins from POS yes?

"POW = More M/hash ( Power) more coins You get for mining" This is correct.

"PoS = More coins You stake + time of opened not encrypted wallet = more coins You get for staking?" This is not completely correct. You can have your wallet encrypted but it must be unlocked. If you never encrypt your wallet, you do not need to worry about this because your wallet cannot be locked. You actually only need to stake coins for ~12 hours once every 30 days to ensure the 10% annual will be earned. Yes the frequency of installments will be less but the amount of individual installments will be greater. Your wallet can be locked the rest of the time if you wish an extra layer of security and you will still earn 10% annual.

If you have more coins, your 10% of the total coins will equal a greater number, correct.

Think of it like this, if you stake none stop for 30 days, you will collect many, but individually smaller, installments. If you stake only once every 30 days for ~12 hours you will get few, but larger, installments. In either case, after the 30 days, they would be equal. Many people do prefer to go the staking none stop route. The only advantage is you get installments sooner, but they would be smaller in individual size.

There is no static max reward for PoS blocks.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2016, 04:09:57 PM by StevenSaxtonBERNdev »
Steven Saxton - BERN Lead Developer - #JillTheBERN #MineTheBERN

Offline ^eSe^ DonMarco

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Re: Bernie Wallet POS Confusion
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2016, 06:09:00 PM »
I was making POS payments earlier this week, now it says next payment is in 8300 days lol

Hi Kobra Kommander,

What you are looking at is information run throw a very complex process that produces an estimation based on a snapshot of time. This complex and not accurate estimation has many, many unpredictable variables. Calling it an 'estimation' in reality might even be an over exaggeration. Let me explain why.

This is the "simple" part, if there is one. BERN mined blocks mature in ~30 minutes. BERN transactions confirm in ~4 minutes. Actually this is done with the number of blocks passed and not the number of minutes passed, but fortunately BERN has a target block timing of 1 minute so the conversion is straight forward. After either applicable time passes, they begin gaining what is called coin age. Coin age is calculated in days. It takes 24 hours after maturity or full confirmation for staking to start on the individual, fractions of, or grouped BERN effected (1, .001, or 100. i.e. transaction block). This is the minimum coin age for staking of BERN, 24 hours. The maximum coin age for staking is 4 years and at that point BERN residing in the same address will no longer collect PoS rewards. Coin age is reset anytime any amount of BERN moves for the specific BERN that have moved. Staking will not happen in a wallet that is encrypted and is still locked but the BERN will continue to gain coin age and therefor have more weight when staking is started. Weight is calculated by a function that contains the variables of coin age and the size of the transaction block (not to be confused with a block on the blockchian). When you think about a wallet that is even mildly used throughout a day, imagine all the "timers" of coin age that are present because every transaction has a timer attached to the all BERN within that transaction. Every faucet payment, every airdrop, every move to or from an exchange, and even every move of BERN to a different address within the same wallet. Extrapolate that out among all the wallets and all their transactions. If that sounds like a lot of time calculations, it's because it is. Please also note, weight only determines the frequency of installments towards the 10%. Again, this was the not-so-complex part.

Please for a moment think about all the ever changing external factors outside of your wallet for which you nor your wallet have control over: How many BERN wallets are online and staking. How many are not online and therefor not staking. How many BERN are they presently staking. How many BERN are they not staking (but these are still gaining coin age and subsequently will have more weight when they are staked). What is the coin age and weight of the BERN they are holding. What are the sizes of all their different transactions blocks. Also somewhere on the network, 250 BERN reach staking age every minute, unless they were moved prior to reaching minimum staking age 24 hours or sooner which resets those coin's age. Now think of the changes of all them just mentioned variables when people are sending and receiving constantly. Coin age is getting reset on some amount of BERN with every send and receive and subsequently network weight lowers. But at that same or very near time other coins on the other side of the network reach minimum staking age and push network weight upward by some amount based on the size of its transaction block. The matrix of constantly changing variables is really mind boggling even to think of all this happening on only with a few wallets and transactions. Let alone hundreds or thousands.

All of this could not be reported in anything remotely close to real time by any single computer even if it could gather all the information fast enough from all the nodes. Until crypto, computational power, and the entire supporting Internet, all do some major evolving these gross estimations must suffice. Perhaps before the 2020 election when we get ready to vote Bernie in for his second term technology will exists to do this with a greater degree of accuracy.

Rest assured Kobra Kommander, you will receive your 10% annual. BERN is built upon time-tested and time-proven PoS code by the pioneers of PoS. I took much effort, did much research, and did implement all code improvements that have evolved in PoS to ensure an accurate 10% annual return on all BERN holdings.

Thank you for raising this question Kobra Kommander as I am sure other BERN community members have wondered the same. If any further elaboration is needed by yourself or any other reader of this post, please be specific as possible when asking.

(a lot of this post comes from questions asked in the BERN announcement thread on Bitcoin Talk in this post. Yes I am the BernieCoin user on Bitcoin Talk.)

WoW. This is very good information. I was woundering as well that is POS ( I know it is like POW but different)

Than if I good understand it like this:

POW = More M/hash ( Power) more coins You get for mining
PoS = More coins You stake + time of opened not encrypted wallet = more coins You get for staking?
Wallets with more balance and 24/7 opened wallet have more chance to make more coins from POS?
max reward POS?

I got now like 0.01 - 0.1 Bern for staking sometimes 10x per day sometimes 2x per day, but now im selling all other coins and buying more and more bern to stake in my wallet. than if i have like 500,000,00 Bern in my wallet i will get more often and more coins from POS yes?

"POW = More M/hash ( Power) more coins You get for mining" This is correct.

"PoS = More coins You stake + time of opened not encrypted wallet = more coins You get for staking?" This is not completely correct. You can have your wallet encrypted but it must be unlocked. If you never encrypt your wallet, you do not need to worry about this because your wallet cannot be locked. You actually only need to stake coins for ~12 hours once every 30 days to ensure the 10% annual will be earned. Yes the frequency of installments will be less but the amount of individual installments will be greater. Your wallet can be locked the rest of the time if you wish an extra layer of security and you will still earn 10% annual.

If you have more coins, your 10% of the total coins will equal a greater number, correct.

Think of it like this, if you stake none stop for 30 days, you will collect many, but individually smaller, installments. If you stake only once every 30 days for ~12 hours you will get few, but larger, installments. In either case, after the 30 days, they would be equal. Many people do prefer to go the staking none stop route. The only advantage is you get installments sooner, but they would be smaller in individual size.

There is no static max reward for PoS blocks.

Okey got it:)

I prefer to have wallet 24/7 open cuz i help network as well :) and it's good for everyone :P

Need to collect more and more Bern ASAP :D going to buy some now on YoBit :)
Feel free to ask me anything You want :)
#FeelTheBern

Offline bigs21024

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Re: Bernie Wallet POS Confusion
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2016, 07:04:51 PM »
Thanks for the info good stuff